Allan Rohlfs
is a seasoned psychotherapist, educator, and certified trainer in
Nonviolent Communication (NVC) with over five decades of experience in
empathic listening and interpersonal communication.
His extensive career includes teaching at the Lutheran School of Theology
at Chicago for 30 years, where he focused on pastoral care and listening
skills.
When I Listen People Speak and Come Alive, is the culmination of
author Allan Rohlfs five decades
long work of practicing listening and teaching.
Edwin and Alan discuss the evolution and impact of
empathic listening, emphasizing its transformative power in personal and
societal interactions.
Edwin Rutsch and Alan Rolfs discuss the evolution and
impact of empathic listening, emphasizing its transformative power in
personal and societal interactions. Rolfs, a psychotherapist and author,
highlights his journey with Carl Rogers and Eugene Jenlin, and the
development of his book on empathic listening. They explore the challenges
of scaling empathic practices, such as the Empathy Circle and Nonviolent
Communication (NVC), and the need for a cultural shift towards empathy.
Rolfs suggests that empathic listening leads to deeper connections and
personal growth, advocating for a broader dissemination of these practices
to foster a culture of empathy.
Edwin Rutsch and Alan Rolfs discuss the evolution and impact
of empathic listening, emphasizing its transformative power in personal and
societal interactions. Rolfs, a psychotherapist and author, highlights his
journey with Carl Rogers and Eugene Jenlin, and the development of his book
on empathic listening. They explore the challenges of scaling empathic
practices, such as the Empathy Circle and Nonviolent Communication (NVC),
and the need for a cultural shift towards empathy. Rolfs suggests that
empathic listening leads to deeper connections and personal growth,
advocating for a broader dissemination of these practices to foster a
culture of empathy.
Edwin Rutsch and Alan Rolfs discussed strategies to promote empathy in
politics, including organizing empathy circles and setting up empathy tents
in local communities. They shared experiences, such as Edwin's attempt to
arrange an empathy circle between Gavin Newsom and John Cox, and Alan
Rolfs's contact in the Senate. They emphasized the need for better
understanding and recognition of empathy's transformative effects. They
proposed recording empathy circles involving opposing viewpoints, like
pro-life and pro-choice groups, and organizing extended empathy circle
marathons to deeply explore the experience. Edwin offered to support these
initiatives and suggested using Zoom for future discussions.
Action Items
[ ] @Edwin Rutsch - Organize an extended empathy circle
exploration session to deeply examine the experience and phenomenon of
what happens during empathic listening.
[ ] @Edwin Rutsch - Identify and connect with individuals
or groups representing different perspectives on empathy (e.g. "woke"
empathy, conservative views) to facilitate empathy circle dialogues that
could be recorded.
[ ] Explore recording and sharing Alan's workshops and
online sessions to make the content more widely available.
[ ] Invite Edwin to participate in Alan's ongoing Monday
night empathy practice sessions.
Outline
Introduction and Background of Alan Rolfs
Edwin Rutsch introduces himself as the director of the
Empathy Center and mentions Alan Rolfs' book, "When I Listen, People Speak
and Come Alive."
Alan Rolfs shares his background as a psychotherapist and
his interest in empathic listening, which began in the late 1960s and
early 1970s.
Alan discusses his connection with Carl Rogers and Eugene
Jenlin, who taught him empathic listening techniques.
He explains his interest in teaching empathic listening to
everyone, not just professionals, and his involvement in the Vietnam War
era.
Development of Empathic Listening
Alan Rolfs elaborates on his interest in social change and
community psychology, which led him to learn and teach empathic listening.
He emphasizes the importance of continuous empathic
listening, not just for a few minutes but for extended periods.
Edwin Rutsch and Alan discuss the evolution of empathic
listening from Carl Rogers' work in the 1950s and 1960s to their own
experiences in the late 1960s and 1970s.
They highlight the cultural significance of empathic
listening and its potential to transform interactions and relationships.
Alan Rolfs' Book and Its Contribution
Alan Rolfs describes the process of writing his book, which
took about eight years and aimed to provide a comprehensive guide from
beginner to advanced levels.
He mentions the lack of similar comprehensive books on
empathic listening and the unique contribution of his book.
Edwin Rutsch compares Alan's book to William Miller's
"Listening Well," noting the practical nature of both books.
They discuss the importance of having a practical guide to
empathic listening, which is often lacking in other books on the topic.
Challenges and Opportunities in Spreading Empathic Listening
Edwin Rutsch and Alan Rolfs discuss the challenges of
spreading empathic listening and the need for a structured approach.
They mention the potential of high-profile leaders like
politicians using empathy circles to demonstrate its effectiveness.
Alan Rolfs shares his experience with the Changes groups in
Chicago, which taught empathic listening to both laypeople and those
troubled by mental health issues.
They explore the idea of creating a culture of empathy
through mutual listening and the potential impact on society.
Empathy Circle and Its Practical Application
Edwin Rutsch explains the concept of the Empathy Circle,
which involves mutual listening among a small group of people.
He describes the structure of the Empathy Circle, including
the selection of listeners and the timed turns for speaking and listening.
Alan Rolfs compares the Empathy Circle to the Changes
groups and discusses the benefits of mutual listening in a group setting.
They discuss the potential for the Empathy Circle to become
a cultural norm and its role in transforming society.
The Role of Nonviolent Communication (NVC)
Edwin Rutsch and Alan Rolfs discuss the role of Nonviolent
Communication (NVC) in empathic listening and its founder, Marshall
Rosenberg.
Alan Rolfs shares his experience with NVC and the divide
within the NVC community regarding social justice issues.
They discuss the importance of focusing on the speaker's
experience rather than just feelings and needs in NVC.
Edwin Rutsch expresses concerns about the politicization of
NVC and its alignment with woke culture, emphasizing the need for a more
inclusive and empathic approach.
The Future of Empathic Listening and Movement Building
Edwin Rutsch and Alan Rolfs discuss the potential for
building a movement around empathic listening and creating a culture of
empathy.
They explore the idea of using high-profile individuals and
events to promote empathic listening and its benefits.
Alan Rolfs shares his plans to translate his book into
different languages and make it more accessible to a broader audience.
They discuss the importance of documenting and sharing
their experiences and workshops to inspire others to adopt empathic
listening practices.
Conclusion and Next Steps
Edwin Rutsch and Alan Rolfs agree on the need for a
structured approach to spreading empathic listening and creating a culture
of empathy.
They discuss the potential for collaboration and the
importance of sharing their knowledge and experiences.
Alan Rolfs expresses interest in participating in the
Empathy Summit in October and contributing to the movement-building
efforts.
They conclude by emphasizing the transformative power of
empathic listening and the need for continued efforts to promote it
widely.
Empathy Movement and Political Engagement
Edwin Rutsch suggests bringing all sides together for
dialog using empathy, noting a potential space for this now.
Speaker 2 shares a personal story about a trip to
Washington, DC with their son, highlighting the importance of civics
education and the experience of witnessing the Senate debate on the debt
limit.
Edwin Rutsch proposes creating a chapter-based empathy
movement with local listening events and empathy tents at the Capitol
Mall, aiming for a bill mandating monthly empathy circles for Senators and
Representatives.
Edwin recounts an attempt to organize an empathy circle
between Gavin Newsom and John Cox, noting the challenges due to the
election timeline and the broader debate about empathy in the Senate.
Challenges and Opportunities in Political Empathy
Edwin discusses the political challenges of promoting
empathy, mentioning Barack Obama's campaign promises and the subsequent
Senate debate on empathy.
He highlights the confusion between empathy and sympathy,
noting that Republicans are often more open to empathy when they
understand it.
Edwin shares his experience running for Congress as an
empathy candidate, receiving 3% of the vote in District 8.
Speaker 2 mentions having a contact in the Senate and
expresses interest in facilitating connections to promote empathy in
political discussions.
Strategizing and Brainstorming Empathy Initiatives
Edwin emphasizes the need for time to strategize and
brainstorm, suggesting more dialogs and Zoom meetings to share ideas and
experiences.
Speaker 2 reflects on the transformative experience of
empathy, noting its intangible yet powerful impact on people.
Edwin agrees, focusing on the importance of naming and
understanding the experience of empathy.
They discuss the potential for holding an empathy circle to
explore the experience of empathy in depth, with Edwin suggesting a
marathon empathy circle to document the process over several hours.
Recording and Documenting Empathy Circles
Edwin proposes recording empathy circles to document the
changes in awareness and consciousness over time.
Speaker 2 suggests recording empathy circles involving
people with opposing views to demonstrate the impact of empathy.
Edwin mentions existing recordings of empathy circles with
pro-life and pro-choice groups, as well as restorative empathy circles for
conflict resolution.
They discuss the potential for involving people with
differing views on empathy, such as those in the woke culture and NBC
communities, to explore the concept further.
Next Steps and Collaboration
Edwin offers to help organize and record empathy circles,
suggesting a deep dive into the experience of empathy.
Speaker 2 invites Edwin to join their Monday night empathy
sessions, held twice a month, to learn and collaborate on empathy
practices.
Edwin expresses interest in participating and learning from
Speaker 2's sessions, emphasizing the importance of continued
collaboration and dialogue.
They conclude the meeting with plans to schedule the next
empathy circle and explore further opportunities for collaboration and
documentation.
Zoom
Meeting summary
for Edwin Rutsch's
Personal Meeting Room (05/27/2025)
Quick recap
Edwin and Allan met to discuss active
listening, empathic communication, and Allan's new book on the subject.
They explored various approaches to empathic listening, including Allan's
workshops and Edwin's Empathy Circle practice, and discussed strategies
for scaling up these practices to create societal change. The conversation
also touched on the challenges of describing empathic experiences, the
potential for empathy in addressing political polarization, and plans for
future collaboration and promotion of empathic listening techniques.
Edwin and Allan begin their meeting by
greeting each other and resolving some initial audio issues. They briefly
discuss the pronunciation of Allan's last name, which has five consonants
and only one vowel. Edwin then informs Allan that he will start recording
their conversation, which will focus on active listening, Allan's work,
his book, and any other relevant topics that may arise.
Empathic Listening: A Comprehensive Guide
Allan discusses his background in empathic
listening and his new book on the subject. He explains that he became a
psychotherapist to learn empathic listening skills, inspired by Carl
Rogers and Eugene Gendlin. Allan's goal has been to make empathic
listening accessible to everyone, not just professionals, as a way to
promote social change and expand mental health support. He describes his
book as a comprehensive guide that covers empathic listening from beginner
to advanced levels, filling a gap in existing literature. Edwin and Allan
discuss the historical development of active listening, mentioning key
figures like Rogers, Gendlin, and Rosenberg. Allan emphasizes the
importance of making a strong argument for empathic listening in his book,
as it remains unfamiliar to many people.
Empathic Listening: Transformative Power
Allan and Edwin discuss the transformative
power of empathic listening and the challenges in describing this process
due to limitations in language. They explore how being truly heard creates
a felt experience of expansion, stress reduction, and increased
authenticity. Allan emphasizes the difficulty in finding words to describe
this phenomenon, noting that current language lacks concepts for
processes. Edwin shares personal experiences of stress relief through
empathic listening sessions and highlights how expressing tentative ideas
can lead to personal growth and creativity.
Empathic Listening Practices and Scaling
The discussion focuses on different approaches
to empathic listening and their potential for societal transformation.
Edwin describes the Empathy Circle, a group practice involving mutual
listening among 4-5 people, which creates a sense of connection and ease.
Allan shares his experience with Changes groups, which used a similar
round-robin approach to practice active listening. They compare the
structures and goals of these practices, noting similarities and
differences. Edwin expresses interest in scaling up the Empathy Circle
practice to create a culture of empathy, suggesting that involving
high-profile leaders could help spread the practice widely. Both agree on
the challenge of scaling and spreading these effective empathic listening
practices to transform society.
Active Listening Workshop Methodology
Allan discusses his approach to teaching
active listening through intensive workshops. He describes a process where
participants take turns being speakers and listeners for 8-10 minutes,
with Allan coaching the listener. After each session, Allan debriefs with
the listener about their experience and opens the floor for group comments
on the process. He emphasizes not interrupting the speaker's ongoing
internal process after their turn. Allan mentions he has recorded some of
these sessions but hasn't uploaded them to YouTube yet. He expresses
interest in recording a full 4-day workshop to create educational content
from it.
Scaling Empathy for Cultural Change
Allan and Edwin discuss the potential for
scaling up empathy practices to create cultural change. Allan acknowledges
that Edwin's Empathy Circle provides a structured, identifiable program,
which may be more effective for spreading the practice than his individual
teaching approach. Edwin explains that the Empathy Circle is scalable,
with chapters in different locations and an Empathy Summit for sharing
experiences. They both agree on the importance of creating a cultural
shift towards empathy, with Edwin emphasizing the intention to transform
society by implementing empathy practices in various contexts, including
politics. Edwin shares an example of how the empathy practice can
positively impact personal relationships, demonstrating its potential for
broader cultural change.
Empathic Listening and NVC Divide
Allan discusses his efforts to spread empathic
listening through workshops and online groups. He expresses a desire to
teach teachers who can then teach others but hasn't figured out how to
implement this yet. Edwin and Allan compare this approach to Marshall
Rosenberg's Nonviolent Communication (NVC) method, which has spread
widely. They both express some concerns about NVC, particularly its recent
shift towards social justice issues and "woke" culture after Rosenberg's
death. Allan describes an ongoing conflict within the NVC community
between those who embrace these new ideas and those who see them as
counter to NVC's original principles. He suggests resolving this conflict
through dialogue between trainers with opposing views.
Empathy and Active Listening Practices
Allan and Edwin discuss the power of empathy
and active listening in addressing polarization and improving
communication. They explore the evolution of Nonviolent Communication
(NVC) and its limitations, with Allan emphasizing the importance of
transforming one's own experience when upset with others. Edwin highlights
the Empathy Circle as a minimal viable practice for fostering empathic
listening. Both agree on the need to develop language and methods to
convey the deeper level of awareness and connection that occurs during
empathic interactions, as well as to counter misconceptions about empathy
being passive or acquiescent.
Empathy's Transformative Power
Allan and Edwin discuss the nature of empathy
and its effects on people. They agree that empathy is not about
acquiescing or agreeing, but rather about a change that occurs in both
individuals involved. Allan emphasizes that this change goes beyond just
the relationship, affecting the people themselves. They struggle to find
the right words to describe this change, considering terms like
"aliveness," "vitality," and "openness." Allan suggests that when people
empathize, they become more connected and alive, and this effect persists
beyond the interaction.
Self-Published Book Marketing Strategies
Allan discusses his plans to market his
self-published book, including creating a Kindle version, recording an
audiobook, and translating it into multiple languages. He is considering
uploading videos of his workshops to YouTube to help readers better
understand his speaking style. Edwin suggests additional marketing
strategies, such as participating in book clubs and using empathy circles
for discussions. They also discuss the possibility of Allan speaking at an
upcoming empathy summit in October about building an empathy movement.
Both agree to stay in touch regarding future collaborations and
promotional opportunities.
Promoting Empathy in Politics
Edwin and Allan discuss the concept of a
"culture of empathy" as a potential solution to political polarization.
They explore ideas for promoting empathy in politics, including creating
local empathy chapters with "empathy tents" and organizing empathy circles
between politicians from opposing parties. Edwin shares his experience
attempting to arrange an empathy circle between California gubernatorial
candidates and his own campaign for Congress as an "empathy candidate."
They consider strategies to introduce empathy practices in the Senate and
address misconceptions about empathy in political discourse.
Empathy Circle Planning Discussion
Allan and Edwin discuss organizing an empathy
circle to explore and articulate the experience of empathy and its
effects. They plan to record a 2-3 hour session focused on describing what
happens during empathic listening. Edwin also suggests recording empathy
circles between people with opposing views, mentioning examples like
pro-life vs pro-choice groups. They agree to schedule the empathy circle
and exchange invitations for their respective events.
