Dominic Barter plays with dialogue and
partnership, focusing primarily in the fields of education, justice,
culture and social change. In the mid-90s he collaborated in the
development of Restorative Circles,
a community-based and -owned practice for dynamic engagement with conflict
that grew from conversations with residents in gang-controlled shantytown
favelas in Rio de Janeiro.
He adapted the practice for the
Brazilian Ministry of Justice's award-winning national projects in
Restorative Justice and supports its application in a further 25
countries. In recent years he has supervised the mediation program for the
Police Pacification Units in Rio, served as invited professor at the
Standing Group for Consensual Methods of Conflict Resolution, at the High
Court of Rio, with a focus on school mediation and bullying, and focused
on the development of restorative community. Currently Dominic directs the
Dialogue Restoration project for the State Education Department of Rio de
Janeiro and partners with the Centre for the Study of Public Security and
Citizenship at Candido Mendes University.
"There's
something really unique about empathy,
that it clears the things that are blocking action,
and that it
connects both inside and
to other people in a way that
"So I prefer to invite people to experience
the
quality that we’re calling empathy rather
than talking about it or illustrating it,
or telling stories
about it."
As a long time student
and colleague of Dr. Marshall Rosenberg Dominic serves on the Board of
Directors for the Center for Nonviolent Communication, shares Nonviolent
Communication throughout Brazil and internationally, and supports its
learning in project-based, community contexts. He has been active in the
street movements and occupations in Rio in recent years. He’s the very
happy dad of an amazing 14 year old.
You can find out more about Restorative Circles at
restorativecircles.org
Sub Conference: Justice
I've been exploring the question
of how can we build a culture of empathy? A while back, I
interviewed Dominic Barter, who facilitates restorative circles in
some of the toughest drug and gang ridden favelas (shantytowns) in
Brazil. He has created a process based on Nonviolent Communication
and Restorative Justice that brings conflicted parties together to
reconnect internally, with others and with the community at large.
Dominic told me restorative circles are like a series of empathy
hot tubs. This is first part of my interview with him where I
asked him about the nature of empathy.
One of the things I experience
when empathy is present,
is that the blocks to action,
which does not exclude,
are removed.
Dominic Barter: One of the things I experience when empathy is
present, is that the blocks to action, which does not exclude are
removed. So one of the ways that I can identify that empathy is
present, is that whatever is impeding action is gone, and that the
quality that that action has is that it tends to include, it
connects, it brings pieces together, it resolve what appears to be
knotted and bound.
And I can remember a situation in a practice group where somewhere
came, and they said, "You know I'm so pissed off with my
boyfriend. I came in last night, and I've been working all day,
and he sat on the sofa watching TV, switching channels. And
there's this huge pile of washing up."
And she had her pain, that she felt around that heard, and she
felt much better. And it was great. And she went home, and
everything for her seemed in her experience of that, very
different.
And next week we gathered again in a practice group, and she said
"I can't believe it. I'm so upset. I came home, and my boyfriend
sat on the sofa, and you know, he's smoking and watching
television, and there's this huge pile of washing up."
And she gets her pain heard again, and the next week I'm thinking
"I'm not sure what's going to happen", and sure enough, there she
is saying, you know, the same thing happened again. So listening
to someone's pain, which is a very supportive regenerative
experience for many of us, is a very key element, but for me, it
is not the piece that I'm looking for. It is not something that
removes the blocks to action yet, if it doesn't translate into a
new relationship between these two people, an initiative taking
back the power to actually express myself and create change.
That's what I like to reserve the word empathy for.
So I can listen like a friend to someone else, and that can be
very valuable, but there's something really unique about empathy,
that it clears the things that are blocking action, and that it
connects both inside and to other people in a way that is
transformative.
But I like the word empathy. It suggests to me more than an
understanding of what has happened to someone else, but almost
like a lending of my sense of them to them, that helps them
reconnect with themselves in a deeper way.
I like the word empathy.
It suggests to me more than an understanding
of what has happened to someone else,
but almost like a lending of my sense of them to them,
that helps them reconnect with themselves
in a deeper way.
And when we really reconnect internally, we discover that we have
a wealth of options, and the joy of life is the engagement in what
is happening around us, to celebrate and support those things that
are aligned with our values, and to engage with those things that
aren't, and invite them to transform.
So that's what I'm looking for, that inner connection that leads
to action. The inner connection is within myself, and it is with
that that I'm able to engage with someone else in a way that
doesn't involve me being submissive to them or attempting to
dominate them. So that's why I say it clears the blocks to action
which is inclusive.
So I'd describe empathy as one of the conditions that enables me
to connect internally, and therefore, to act in a way that doesn't
create separation and distance, but brings people together and
creates power, basically, through partnership, through the desire
to co create the conditions that we want to live in.
I think when the word was unusual - you know, it's still very
recent - and I like speaking about it. So in communities where
that word is not common, I very much like being able to identify
the specific dynamic that the restorative circles are creating the
conditions for, and naming it, so that people can start thinking
about it more consciously.
But in other communities where the word is used a lot, and
sometimes used to describe for me something that doesn't have the
same power as that which I am interested in supporting, then I
tend not to use it. Because when people hear it, they think "Oh, I
already know what that is". That's why you verbalize feelings and
needs, for the other person. And that might be a very powerful
inner guide for me as I lend my presence to someone else as a
support for them to reconnect internally with themselves.
But I don't see that or anything else as being a recipe for
empathy. I don't want to reduce empathy to any particular way of
speaking or any particular trick or procedure that I'm going to
use with other people.
Because it's fundamentally to do with me being fully present with
you in such a way that that quality of presence becomes almost
contagious, and your organism is supported in you reconnecting
inside, and therefore, able, willing and engaged to take the next
step.
EDWIN: So you didn't bring it up here, because I'm just
speculating, because a lot of people have Nonviolent Communication
(NVC) experience, and they have a certain definition of it, and
you thought it would confuse the discussion?
DOMINIC: Well, my understanding of NVC and my understanding of
what I am doing in restorative circles - the quality of empathy is
exactly the same. But as NVC becomes more well-known, and lots of
us have - because all of us in the end have a partial
understanding of it - then I've seen a lot of examples of people
doing something that they call empathy which in my experience
doesn't increase the degree of self-connection for the person
who's receiving that presence. And that's the quality that I'm
really interested in.
So I don't mind if we don't call it empathy, but for now I use the
word empathy to describe that quality.
EDWIN: If you scan back over your life, are there moments when you
learned about empathy, like saying, “Oh, I just learned this
lesson about the nature of empathy”, and can you recount that
experience?
DOMINIC: The first time I ever met someone who had studied
nonviolent communication, and I was talking to her about a
relationship struggle that I was involved in, and she heard me in
a way that was just so different. I had never seen anyone verbally
respond to me in the way that she was doing it.
And it was extraordinary. And what was extraordinary was that I
was brought back, deeper, further into myself, and used to saying
what I say. And as I say it, it leaves me, and then it is in the
other person, and then the other person will respond somewhere,
and the focus of attention is there.
But something in the way she heard me and accompanied me brought
me deeper into myself, and at the end of the few minutes in which
I was expressing myself and heard in that way, I had a very, very
clear specific sense of what I wanted to do next. And the thing I
wanted to do next was something that I wanted to do because I
believed it would increase the sense of connection between me and
the other person with whom I was confused at that moment.
So that was a very clear transformative experience for me.
EDWIN: In terms of exploring the theme, the topic of empathy, how
would you go about exploring that theme. What would be your
approach in getting deeper insight into the experience.
DOMINIC: I’d like to invite people to participate in a very simple
exercise where they share with each other something that is
important to them that has happened recently. And as they share, I
ask the person who is listening, simply to listen. And at the end,
I ask them how it feels.
And I don’t think I’ve ever done that and not heard a large number
of people saying “It feels really good to be heard”. And I take
that as a clue, and I follow that deeper: “What is it that is so
good about being heard?”
“Well, I’m seeing. I become visible. I’m being understood”.
"What is it that is so good about being heard?"
"Well, I’m seeing. I become visible.
I’m being understood."
And people give out language which I think everything already
knows. And my understanding is that they are describing a sense of
supported in being myself, in being at peace with reality as I’m
experiencing it from this viewpoint.
And that is profoundly empowering. And once we are empowered, we
transform, because that’s what the most fun to do – we support the
things that are working for us, and we engage with the things that
aren’t.
"So I prefer to invite people to experience
the quality that we’re calling empathy rather
than talking about it or illustrating it,
or telling stories
about it."
So I prefer to invite people to experience the quality that we’re
calling empathy rather than talking about it or illustrating it,
or telling stories about it. Because it’s a taste for me, a taste
that I want to learn to savor in more and more detail, more and
more precision, like people who taste wine can identify all these
myriad different aspects of the taste behind wine, and layers and
layers or taste that emerge over time.
I want to become a connoisseur of that process of being in
connection with someone which supports action in that way. And so
I’m interested in deepening that for myself, and sharing that with
others as best I can.
I want to become a connoisseur of
that process of being in connection
with someone which supports
action in that way.
EDWIN: There’s a lot of new science out about the mirror neurons.
I’m wondering if you’ve been following that, and have you made the
connection between what you’re doing and that science?
DOMINIC: Yeah, I read some fascinating research just last week.
People who discovered that playing a recording of a child crying
to that same child does not provoke that child to cry. But when
that child hears a recording of other children crying, then they
do cry.
So the levels in which we are organized in such a way as to be
aware of our interconnectedness, I think, are very, very deep, and
we are only beginning to get an understanding of how that is an
essential element of our sociobiology.
So I think it’s absolutely fascinating. I want to keep following
the experiences that these sciences are investigating, and keep
learning about it, and keep being stimulated by the questions that
this is brining up. And make the connection between what the
scientists are discovering and the kind of things that Obama has
been saying – which places empathy as being a key aspect of our
ability to live together in community and relate to each other.
From what I understand, he and other people are saying, is that
empathy is almost a precondition for citizenship – the ability to
recognize what I want, articulate it, and negotiate with other
people to get it in such a way that works for them.
The ability to listen to other people expressing what it is that
they want, despite the way in which they express it in action or
in words, however tragic, however violent the forms that they use.
And then to support them to articulate it, and then to negotiate
with them in a way that leads them to have those needs met. For
society to be organized in a way that is in line with their
values.
This ability to listen empathically to myself and be able to share
it with you, and listen empathically to you, especially when you
appear to be totally different than me, and work with you in order
to meet your needs.
This that I understand that empathy is about is an essential
aspect in our ability to live together. And I see similarly as
Obama does, that part of the problem that we are experiencing at
the moment is that there is a gap in our ability to do that on a
daily personal, interpersonal and social basis. There’s a gap
between our ability to do that, and the society in that we want to
live in.
It’s not sustainable to live in the way that we’re doing -- unless
we recover this ability to see each other as being human first of
all.
I’m really interested in the creation of social structures that
support the emergence of empathy as the logical next step between
people who are living together. So I love the way in which the –
for want of a better word – the personal growth culture over the
last few decades has investigated the question of empathy, made it
its own, and started to develop it as a skill.
I’m really interested in
the creation of
social structures that support the
emergence of empathy as the logical
next step between people who
are living together.
But I don’t actually experience it as a skill. The artificiality
implicit in skill is something that is at odds with the
authenticity that I experience when real empathic change occurs.
So as I interested in building a capacity through personal
practice, I’m also really interested in what is a school that
supports, that makes it logical for empathy to be the next step
that I take in my day-to-day dealings.
What does that school look like?
What does a family in which
empathy is the logical next step when disconnection emerges, or
conflict becomes painful?
What would a justice system look like
where it makes sense that empathy is at the heart of the way in
which these people come together to create balance, safety and
inclusion for everybody?
So I’d like to invite people to start thinking beyond the intra-
and interpersonal, and to start questioning what it looks like to
set up social structures which are designed with the intention of
creating the conditions for empathy to emerge.
The restorative circle work that I do is my attempt to do that
investigation. But it’s just the first few seconds of whatever
needs to be done. So I’d like to invite people to join this
investigation.
EDWIN: Do you have a metaphor,
something that works for you to describe the experience of empathy
in metaphorical terms.
DOMINIC: I don’t think I do I like the word presence. The first
three letters of the word presence, the suffix meaning “that which
comes before” – pre. And the rout of the word means “to be”. The
“sen” from Latin.
So presence is that we are before anything else. Before we do
anything, before we have a sense of our own identity. Before we
have an intention or make any movement.
So presence is not something that I need to train. It’s not a
skill. I don’t accumulate presence or the ability to be present.
And yet it is in some way a practice – or rather it is a practice
not to interfere with presence, and to allow it to be in a way
that is fuller and fuller and more and more visible to someone
else.
So my understanding is that when I connect empathically to someone
else, what I’m doing is I’m turning up the volume on my presence
in such a way that it includes them. And I’m inviting them to
experience me as being fully present with them.
I may be judging them – I probably am, in my case, judging them,
making some kind of diagnosis, believing that they should change
in some way, agreeing with them, or disagreeing with them.
Whether I am doing that or not doesn’t seem to make an affect on
the quality of presence. What makes an effect is where do I focus
my attention. Do I focus my attention on that constant stream of
judgment that I have in my head, or do I focus my attention on the
place in which they and I connect – our common humanity, that
which we share.
When I focus my attention there, things begin to shift, or at
least the invitation for them to shift is clearly on the table.
So that’s my experience of empathy while I am experiencing it as
something alive and dynamic happening between us. And the way that
I connect to the meaning in that is through remembering what the
word presence is pointing to.
EDWIN: It’s not quite a metaphor in terms of turning it into –
like some kind of image or something, in terms of the experience.
So do you mind if I kind of try something else with that? If
empathy is a type of animal, what kind of animal would it be?
DOMINIC: I heard you say animal, but what I saw is a plant. So I’m
going to answer in that sense.
When I’m taking care of a plant, the plants on my balcony, then
what I’m interested in is what supports them to grow. So, empathy
is like this super food. It’s not exactly sunshine, it’s not
exactly water. It’s not exactly the soil. It’s something else
which imbues all of these and creates the conditions for growth.
So, empathy
is like this super food.
It’s not exactly sunshine, it’s not exactly water.
It’s not exactly the soil. It’s something else which imbues
all of these and creates the conditions for growth.
I want it to be silently, invisibly, or visibly present – not
simply in moments in which someone is experiencing pain and would
really like to be heard. I would like it to be the baseline from
which I establish relationships when they don’t exist, care for
those relationships when they do exist, and heal those
relationships that are being diminished in some way by distance
and mistrust, by separation and disagreement.
So it’s a quality of nutrition that human beings, and perhaps
humans and the animals can exchange which creates the conditions
for growth, for movement, for that which takes us deeper into a
sense of living together, of being one.
A French translation by Jean-David Roth (Videos 1-3) A propos de l'empathie, avec Dominic Barter.
Dominic Barter (interrogé par Edwin Rutsch sur la nature de l'empathie)
Une des choses que j'expérimente quand
l'empathie est présente, est que les obstacles vers l'action, qui
n'excluent pas, sont enlevés.
Donc l'une de manières dont je peux identifier que l'empathie est
présente, est que quoique ce soit qui gêne l'action est parti, ... et
que la qualité que cette action a, est qu'elle tend à inclure, elle
connecte, elle rassemble les morceaux, elle résout ce qui semblait
avoir été lié et attaché par des noeuds.
Oui... Et je peux me rappeler d'une situation dans un groupe de
pratique, où quelqu'un est venu et a dit,
Oh, j'en ai tellement marre de la situation avec mon petit ami, et je
suis rentrée l'autre soir, et j'avais travaillé toute la journée, et
il était assis sur le canapé regardant la tv en passant d'un canal à
l'autre, et il y avait cette grosse pile de vaisselle. Et elle
ressentait de la douleur qu'elle a pu exprimer et faire entendre
alentour, et elle se sentait beaucoup mieux. Et ce fut super. Et elle
est rentrée à la maison, et tout, de son expérience de cela, sembla
très différente.
Et la semaine suivante on se rencontra à nouveau dans un groupe de
pratique, et elle dit :
Je ne peux y croire, je suis si préoccupée, je suis rentrée à la
maison sur mon vélo, et mon petit ami était assis sur le canapé, et il
fumait et regardait la télévision, et il y avait cette pile de
vaisselle... Et elle a pu faire entendre sa souffrance à nouveau. Et
je me dis... la semaine prochaine, je ne suis pas si sûr de ce qui va
se passer... mais j'ai l'impression qu'elle va dire : la même chose
est arrivée à nouveau...
Donc ... écouter la souffrance de quelqu'un, ce qui est une expérience
qui nous donne vraiment du soutient et nous régénère pour beaucoup
d'entre nous, est vraiment un élément clé, mais pour moi, ce n'est pas
la pièce que je recherche, car ce n'est pas la pièce qui enlève ce qui
bloque l'action. Si cela ne se traduit pas par une nouvelle relation
entre ces deux personnes, une initiative pour récupérer le pouvoir de
vraiment m'exprimer et créer le changement, car c'est à cela que je
voudrais réserver la dénomination d'empathie.
Donc je peux écouter comme un ami ce que dit quelqu'un d'autre, et
cela peut avoir beaucoup de valeur, mais il y a quelque chose de
vraiment unique à propos de l'empathie, en cela qu'elle désencombre
les choses qui bloquent l'action. Et elle me connecte à la fois à
l'intérieur et à d'autres gens, d'une manière qui est transformante.
Mais j'aime le mot empathie, il me suggère plus qu'une compréhension
de ce qui est arrivé à quelqu'un, mais presque comme une sorte de prêt
de ma manière de les percevoir que je leur fait. Qui les aide à se
reconnecter à eux-mêmes d'une manière plus profonde.
Et quand on se reconnecte vraiment vraiment intérieurement, nous
découvrons que nous avons une richesse d'options (ndlr: ou: quantité
de choix). Et nous... La joie de vivre est notre engagement dans ce
qui arrive autour de nous... de célébrer et d'encourager ces choses
qui sont en ligne avec nos valeurs, et de prendre contact avec les
choses qui ne le sont pas pour les inviter à se transformer, donc
c'est cela que je recherche, cette connexion intérieure qui me conduit
à l'action. La connexion intérieure vit à l'intérieur de moi, et c'est
avec cela que je suis capable d'entrer en relation avec quelqu'un
d'autre d'une manière qui n'est pas soumise par rapport à eux, ni en
train de tenter de les dominer. Donc c'est pour cela que je dis "cela
enlève les obstacles vers l'action (ndlr : ici quelque chose que je
n'ai pas compris) ou vers l'action qui est inclusive. Donc je décris
l'empathie comme l'une des conditions qui me permet de me connecter
intérieurement, et par conséquent d'agir d'une manière qui ne crée pas
de la séparation ou de la distance, mais amène les gens ensemble et
crée du pouvoir, de manière basique, à travers du partenariat, du
désir de co-créer (=créer ensemble) les conditions dans lesquelles
nous voulons vivre. Je pense... enfin..., quand ce mot était peu
répandu, vous savez, il est récent, quand il ne l'était pas encore,
j'aimais en parler dans des communautés dans lesquelles ce mot n'était
pas courant, j'aime beaucoup être capable d'identifier la dynamique
spécifique, pour que les cercles restauratifs euh, euh créent les
conditions pour, et la nommer, pour que les gens puissent commencer à
en parler de manière plus consciente. Mais dans d'autres communautés
dans lesquelles ce mot est beaucoup utilisé, et parfois pour désigner
quelque chose qui pour moi n'a pas le même pouvoir que celui auquel je
suis intéressé et que je veux promouvoir, alors je tends à ne pas
l'utiliser (ndlr: ce mot d'empathie) parce que quand ils l'entendent,
les gens pensent "Oh, je sais déjà ce que cela est". C'est pourquoi
j'utilise verbalement alors "sentiments et besoins" (ndlr : des
concepts fortement "Communication Non Violente") pour parler à ces
autres personnes. Et cela peut être un puissant mode d'emploi
intérieur pour moi, comme je prête ma présence, à quelqu'un d'autre,
comme une aide pour lui à se reconnecter avec lui-même de manière
interne...
Mais je ne vois pas cela ou n'importe quoi d'autre comme étant un mode
d'emploi de l'empathie. Je ne veux réduire l'empathie à aucune manière
particulière de parler, ou aucun truc ou procédure que je vais
utiliser avec les autres gens. Cela a fondamentalement pour moi à voir
avec le fait d'être pleinement et authentiquement présent avec vous
d'une manière telle que cette qualité de présence devienne quasiment
contagieuse. Et que votre organisme est soutenu pour se reconnecter
avec lui-même à l'intérieur, et de ce fait, capable, volontaire,
engagé pour monter sur la prochaine marche.
Edwin Rutsch :
Donc, vous ne nous avez pas amené là parce que ... je fais juste de la
spéculation, il y a beaucoup de gens qui ont fait des expériences de
la NVC (CNV en français = Communication Non Violente) et ils ont une
certaine définition de l'empathie, et vous pensiez que cela risquait
d'embrouiller la discussion?
Dominic Barter:
De ma compréhension de la CNV et de ma compréhension de ce que je fais
dans les cercles restauratifs, la qualité d'empathie dont nous parlons
est exactement la même. Mais au fur et à mesure que la CNV devient
plus connue, et que beaucoup d'entre nous ont, parce que nous tous en
avons au final une compréhension partielle, j'ai vu beaucoup
d'exemples de gens qui faisaient quelque chose qu'elles appelaient de
l'empathie, mais qui à mon sens n'accroissait pas le degré de
connexion à soi que la personne recevait de cette présence. Et c'est
cela la qualité que je cherche vraiment à trouver. (Sous-entendu:
celle qui accroît chez l'autre personne la connexion à elle-même
qu'elle obtient). Donc cela ne me fait rien, si on ne l'appelle pas
empathie. Mais pour l'instant, j'utilise ce mot pour décrire cette
qualité.
"Restorative Justice is an alternative to the judicial
system that is proving successful around the world in keeping youth
offenders out of jail and reducing recidivism. A partner process,
Restorative Circles, is a community-based system that supports those
involved in conflict by bringing together the parties involved and
creating conditions for mutually beneficial action.
Dominic Barter is an
internationally recognized expert on restorative justice. In the 1990s,
he developed Restorative Circles in the favelas of Brazil and the
process has been applied on the community level in 22 countries and has
been used as a part of award-winning government projects in justice and
educational and social services"
Toward
Peace and Justice in Brazil: Dominic Barter and Restorative Circles -
Joshua Wachtel
"In the mid-1990s, Dominic Barter began working with favela residents,
including drug gang members, to help them strengthen nonviolent options
for working with young people. “I saw violence as a monologue,” said
Barter. “All the state and gang responses to violence were more of the
same. I wanted to create a dialogue.” In early 2005 he helped organize
the country’s first public presentation on restorative practices, at the
Brazil-based annual World Social Forum. The Ministry of Justice heard
Barter’s presentation and hired him to develop a conferencing model and
train facilitators for two of three new pilot projects, in São Paulo and
Porto Alegre."
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