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Culture of Empathy Builder:   Graham Bodie
 
 
 

Defining Empathy:
Is Empathy Getting or Taking a Perspective?

Graham Bodie


Graham Bodie is an internationally recognized expert on listening and has published over 90 monographs, book chapters, and encyclopedia entries. His most recent co-edited project, The Handbook of Listening, is the first comprehensive and interdisciplinary resource on the topic. Graham is professor of Media and Communication at University of Mississippi.

 

He wrote a blog post on LinkedIn titled Is Empathy Really About Perspective-Taking? Edwin and Graham discuss his blog post and Edwin's Wholistic Empathy definition model.

 

Graham writes; Listening well is about perspective-getting.

  • Perspective-taking centers you - your imagination, your lens, your interpretive filter.

  • Perspective-getting centers the other person - their voice, their experience, their meaning.

  • Perspective-getting requires humility. It requires curiosity.

 

 

 

 

VIDEO: Empathy: Is it Getting or Taking a Perspective

 

 

 

 

Is Empathy Really About Perspective-Taking? We're often told to "put ourselves in someone else's shoes." (LinkedIn Post by Graham)
 
 

It's one of the most common definitions of empathy: perspective-taking.
But, when we imagine what someone else is thinking or feeling, we're often wrong.

Decades of research (like the work of Eyal, Epley, and others) has shown that people are surprisingly bad at predicting others' internal experiences, especially when we rely on our assumptions rather than actually asking.

Listening well is about perspective-getting.

Perspective-taking centers you - your imagination, your lens, your interpretive filter.
Perspective-getting centers the other person - their voice, their experience, their meaning.
Perspective-getting requires humility. It requires curiosity.

And, yes, it requires listening with the goal of understanding how this person makes meaning, not how I would make meaning if I were them.

This is where many well-intentioned communication trainings fall short. They treat empathy as something you perform instead of something you practice.

But if we want to show up as real listeners - in our teams, in our communities, in our relationships - we need to move beyond the myth of empathy as imagination.

 

 

 

Otter.ai - 2025-06-13 - Graham Bodie

Transcript

https://otter.ai/u/Cwj36ZAqs8xcROFr9cCZAyo79gs?view=summary

Edwin Rutsch and Graham Bodie discuss the complexities of empathy and listening. Graham emphasizes the distinction between perspective taking and perspective getting, arguing that empathy should focus on understanding others' perspectives without necessarily adopting them. They explore the academic confusion around empathy, noting criticisms like "The Sin of Empathy" and "Toxic Empathy." Graham highlights the importance of listening as a higher-order meaning-making process, contrasting it with mere comprehension. They also discuss the need for clear definitions and practical applications of empathy, particularly in therapeutic and social contexts, and the potential for empathy circles to foster mutual understanding and reduce conflict.

 

Action Items

  • [ ] Explore doing pre-post studies on the impact of empathy circles.

  • [ ] Potentially collaborate on using the social cohesion impact measure to quantify the effects of empathy-building programs.


Outline

 


Introduction and Background of Participants

  • Edwin Rutsch introduces himself as the director of the empathy center and mentions his 15 years of work on creating a more empathic society.

  • Graham Bodie is introduced as an internationally recognized expert on listening, with a background in media and communication at the University of Mississippi.

  • Graham humorously suggests that his focus on listening might be due to his own lack of skill in it.

  • Edwin and Graham discuss their mutual interest in empathy and listening, leading to a deeper conversation on the topic.


Defining Empathy and Perspective Taking

  • Edwin explains his interest in defining empathy and his work on the empathy project, noting the confusion and criticisms surrounding the term.

  • Graham shares his experience with a talk he gave on active empathic listening and the concept of perspective getting versus perspective taking.

  • Graham explains the academic literature's focus on cognitive empathy and perspective taking, contrasting it with the idea of perspective getting.

  • Edwin and Graham discuss the importance of clear definitions in creating an empathy movement and the challenges of academic definitions.


Active Listening and Empathic Processes

  • Graham elaborates on the concept of active listening, originally attributed to Carl Rogers, and its misuse in corporate training.

  • He discusses the adjectification of listening and the multiple definitions of empathy and listening.

  • Graham explains the difference between cognitive empathy (perspective taking) and affective empathy (perspective getting) and their implications for effective communication.

  • Edwin shares his work on defining empathy within the context of empathy circles and the importance of basic empathy and imaginative empathy.


Imagined Interactions and Empathic Communication

  • Graham introduces the theory of imagined interactions and its role in planning and improving real interactions.

  • He discusses the benefits of imaginative practices in creating effective conversations and the pitfalls of replacing real interactions with imagined ones.

  • Graham highlights the importance of understanding and respecting the perspectives of others, even if they differ from our own.

  • Edwin and Graham discuss the role of imagination in empathic communication and the need for a balance between imagination and real interaction.


Empathy in Therapeutic Contexts

  • Edwin and Graham discuss Carl Rogers' work on active listening and empathy in therapeutic contexts.

  • Graham explains the three core conditions for therapeutic change: empathy, unconditional positive regard, and congruence.

  • They discuss the importance of being present and understanding the client's perspective without judgment.

  • Graham emphasizes the need for genuine and authentic communication in therapeutic settings.


Empathy and Social Cohesion

  • Graham talks about his work on developing the social cohesion impact measure to evaluate the effectiveness of empathy and listening programs.

  • He explains the importance of standardized measures in demonstrating the impact of bridging programs on social cohesion.

  • Edwin shares his experience with empathy circles and the potential for studies to measure their impact.

  • They discuss the need for empirical evidence to support the effectiveness of empathy and listening interventions.


Challenges and Criticisms of Empathy

  • Edwin and Graham discuss the criticisms of empathy, including the sin of empathy and toxic empathy.

  • They explore the reasons behind these criticisms, such as the misuse of empathy and the focus on affective empathy over cognitive empathy.

  • Graham emphasizes the importance of understanding and respecting different perspectives without accepting them as the only truth.

  • They discuss the need for a balanced approach to empathy that values both listening and action.


Future Directions and Collaboration

  • Graham shares his plans to write up manuscripts on listening and social cohesion, including research on neurodivergent individuals.

  • Edwin expresses interest in collaborating on studies to measure the impact of empathy circles and other interventions.

  • They discuss the potential for using standardized measures to evaluate the effectiveness of empathy and listening programs.

  • Graham and Edwin conclude the conversation with a mutual interest in continuing their work and exploring future collaborations.

 

 

 

Zoom Meeting summary for Edwin Rutsch's Personal Meeting Room (06/13/2025)

 
   

Quick recap

Edwin and Graham engaged in an in-depth discussion on empathy, exploring its definition, components, and role in effective communication and decision-making. They examined various perspectives on empathy, including its application in listening, therapy, and societal interactions, while also addressing critiques and misconceptions surrounding the concept. The conversation concluded with a focus on the practical applications of empathy in research, policy-making, and bridging social divides, highlighting the need for standardized measurement tools to demonstrate the effectiveness of empathy-building interventions.

Next steps

Summary

Defining and Understanding Empathy

Edwin and Graham discussed empathy, focusing on its definition and the need for clarity in its understanding. Edwin highlighted the confusion surrounding empathy in academia and the criticisms it faces, emphasizing the importance of a clear definition for his work on creating an empathy movement. Graham explained that his LinkedIn post on empathy was a culmination of a talk he had given previously, which explored shifting from perspective-taking to perspective-getting. They agreed to further explore the topic and potentially collaborate on defining empathy.

Active Empathic Listening Concepts

Graham discussed the concept of active empathic listening, distinguishing between academic and corporate interpretations of the term. He explained how empathy in listening involves perspective-taking, contrasting self-oriented with other-oriented approaches. Graham noted that while academic research suggests people are naturally poor at imagining others' perspectives, this ability is crucial for effective listening and empathy.

Empathy: Perspective and Connection

Graham and Edwin discussed the distinction between perspective-taking and perspective-getting in empathy, with Graham emphasizing the importance of strategic questions to understand others' experiences. Edwin shared his work on defining empathy, particularly in the context of empathy circles, distinguishing between basic empathy, imaginative empathy, and cognitive empathy. They agreed that while imagination has a role in understanding others, the core of empathy involves sensing and connecting with the person's experience directly.

Imagine Interactions and Humanistic Therapy

Graham discussed the Imagine Interactions theory developed by his colleague Jim Honeycutt, which focuses on effectively planning conversations. He explained that while imagining interactions can be generative and helpful, it's important not to replace actual interactions with imagined ones, as this can lead to misunderstandings. Graham also touched on the history of humanistic therapy, noting that Carl Rogers' approach was a paradigm shift that emphasized treating people as competent and empowered, which is now considered commonplace but was revolutionary at the time.

Rogers' Empathy Models and Evolution

Edwin and Graham discussed the concept of empathy, focusing on Carl Rogers' approach to active listening and perspective-taking. Edwin explained his simplified model of empathy, distinguishing between basic empathy (perspective-getting), imaginative empathy (role-playing scenarios), and holistic empathy (group connections). They explored how Rogers' work on empathy has evolved into more complex academic concepts like cognitive and affective empathy, while Rogers himself emphasized a more holistic and integrated approach to understanding others.

Listening: From Individual to Organizational

Graham discussed the evolution of listening from an individual to an interpersonal and organizational phenomenon, highlighting its role in therapeutic change and empathy. He explained Carl Rogers' three core conditions for therapy: empathy, unconditional positive regard, and congruence, emphasizing the importance of genuine and authentic communication. Graham also noted the shift in academic literature from distinguishing between hearing, listening, and eudaining to recognizing listening as a higher-order meaning-making process that involves understanding, comprehension, evaluation, and generating responses.

Empathy and Listening in Society

Graham and Edwin discussed the concepts of empathy and listening, emphasizing the need for a society and government built on listening rather than just speaking. They explored different levels of empathy, from individual to societal, and the lack of incentives to value divergent perspectives. They also discussed the components of empathy, including cognitive empathy, affective empathy, and emotional contagion, and the importance of understanding and perspective-taking in empathy.

Reason, Emotion, and Empathy Models

Edwin and Graham discussed the challenges of distinguishing between reason and emotion, noting that reasoning itself has a felt experience and cannot be entirely separated from emotion. They explored how emotions are often distinguished by the cognitive context in which they occur, and discussed dual-process models of moral reasoning where initial emotional reactions inform subsequent rational justifications. The conversation concluded with Edwin outlining two buckets of effective empathy: emotional sharing, which includes state matching and emotional merging, and emotional reactions, which can arise from personal experiences or shared memories.

Understanding True Empathy vs Emotional Contagion

Edwin and Graham discussed the concept of empathy, particularly focusing on the distinction between true empathy and emotional contagion. They explored how therapists and others can maintain empathic presence without becoming overwhelmed by the emotions of others, contrasting this with reactions that block empathy such as excessive sympathy or becoming consumed by another's distress. They also discussed how some conservative critics view empathy as creating a victim mentality, leading to a victim-perpetrator dynamic that can be counterproductive.

Empathy in Decision-Making and Dialogue

Edwin and Graham discussed the concept of empathy, focusing on its role in dialogue and decision-making. They explored how empathy can be misunderstood as merely accepting others' perspectives without action, which can lead to critiques like those from Paul Bloom. Edwin shared his efforts to redefine empathy as a process of mutual listening and understanding, using the "empathy circle" approach. Graham emphasized the importance of empathy in complex decision-making and policy-making, while also acknowledging the critique that listening alone may not lead to action. They agreed that true empathy involves understanding others' perspectives without necessarily agreeing with them, and that it can have positive physiological effects like reduced blood pressure and increased connection.

Empathy Tools for Social Impact

Graham discussed his ongoing research, including a manuscript on listening perceptions among neurodivergent individuals and the development of a social cohesion impact measure tool for bridging organizations. He mentioned the need for standardized measurement tools to demonstrate the effectiveness of interventions like empathy circles, which Edwin expressed interest in studying further. They briefly discussed a documentary on political divides and the potential for empirical studies on the impact of empathy-building exercises.